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Forum posts for Che Guevara, Hitler and More

Posted by Nerhael on Jul 17, 2007
Tim's pretty loquacious.

I think the best thing I've done so far today was go lie outside and daydream of sometime better.

Posted by Miguel on Jul 17, 2007
Che Guevara was not closer to Ghandhi than Hitler.

He was a great military thinker, a committed idealogue, a terrible leader and a ruthless executer. He killed many without trial or jury simply because they supported the government he helped overthrow.

He was at his best when he was going all over the world helping insurgents in Africa and South America fight against terrible governments. Thats it.

I say this as a son of a devoted communist mother.

Posted by bryan on Jul 17, 2007
With all due respect to all parties involved...

From a purely mathematical perspective, Che is closer to Gandhi than Hitler.

I don't know enough about Indian history, but I know that Gandhi was a some sort of bad ass pacifist. Lets say decisions he made caused about 10,000 deaths, lifetime. I'm just throwing out bullshit on this one... if anyone wants to get me a better figure... by all means.

Hitler was responsible for approx. 6 million folks dying in concentration camps. It could be argued that he is responsible for most of world war 2 happening. His imperialist inclinations made the world ripe for plunder.

Bam! Japan bombs America, America nukes the shit out of Japan - bang! Death toll through the roof! Russia and Japan have at China from both sides while the Swedes eat berries and have snowball fights.

Fast forward to the end of the war, and we've got the creation of Israel, a direct result of the treatment of the Jews under Hitler. How many Palestinians, Lebanese and Israelis have died as a result of that clusterfuck?

Probably another million or seven dead, worldwide, as a result of Hitler's actions.

Imagine the lives that could have been saved from disease if it weren't for Hitler making us all focus on hating each other? (I know, I know... shut up, hippy.)

So now Che, how many people could he have possibly killed? Lets say he personally executed 8,000 people. I have no clue, really. Let's bump that number up to include all the people that died in conflicts he initiated... lets say 80,000. I seriously doubt that Che Guevara is personally responsible for 80,000 deaths, but I'm aiming high for the sake of the argument.

So Ghandi = 10,000, Hitler = 6-13,000,000 and Che= 80,000

That puts Che closer to Ghandi, doesn't it?

Tim sounds like a real stand up chap. Jesus would be a terrorist by today's standards.

Posted by Miguel on Jul 17, 2007
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Let me put it this way:

Hitler: Committed idealogue (fascism), ok military leader (mostly his generals doing), bad to middling political leader (+ effective at mass social communication, - blamed recessions on jewish bogeymen), bad human rights record (duh)

Che Guevara: Committed Idealogue (communism), great military leader (despite no military training, contributed much to guerrila warfare), bad to middling political leader (+ charismatic, - not so good at actually running a country when he tried in Cuba), bad human rights record (+ fought against states with terrible human rights records, - killed between 160-550 people without trial as special prosecutor in Cuba)

Gandhi - Commited Idealogue (Satyagraha — the resistance of tyranny through mass civil disobedience), military leader (not applicable), great political leader (charismatic, effective without relying on force), great human rights record (duh)


ummm
Posted by jessie on Jul 17, 2007
I think everyone is agreeing, yes?

and by everyone i mean bryan and miguel.

you guys made my work day better.

Posted by Nerhael on Jul 17, 2007
Ultimately, you guys can argue this forever, because you're using different types of measuring units.

Just settle it with a game of Soul Caliber 3 or something. Winner wins.

Posted by phduffy on Jul 17, 2007
This is an actual military test from WWII:

WWII: Attach a bomb to a cat and drop it from a dive-bomber on to Nazi ships. The cat, hating water, will “wrangle” itself on to enemy ship’s deck. In tests cats became unconscious in mid-air

Posted by Nerhael on Jul 17, 2007
I'm a little alarmed this got past the "Jesus christ Bob...what the fuck kind of idea is that?" phase...

The Scale of Evil
Posted by Tim on Jul 17, 2007
The Scale of Evil:

The following should serve as a reference guide.

10/10: Adolf Hitler. One of the greatest villains in the history of mankind. Season after season, he's in the running for the World Cup of Evil, but it's a real horserace between him and perennial favourites Pol Pot, Josef Stalin and Ghengis Khan.

7/10. Napoleon. Loved the conquering. No reason given, just loved it, glory and eponymous syndromes and all that. Revered as a hero in some circles, which is hilarious. As they say, the winners write the history.

6/10: Hurricane Katrina. That bitch. Why? Still, not that many died on the scale compared to those ranked higher, and she helped shed light on pertinent social problems.

5/10: The Pope. All popes, but none in particular -- this charge comes by holding The Office. Complicit in the senseless slaughter of millions (either through malicious intent, physical violence, negligence, or a catastrophic devotion to silly, inhuman doctrines). Justification? None. Find a line in the bible that says God shall speak through one man, a fundamentalist asshole of a man, voted in by an international group of other depraved, unsexed (or child-sexed) sociopaths. Find it yet? Didn't think so. 5!

4/10. Muhammed. Had some peaceful things to say, yes, about his chosen people, and nobody else. He's a man of war, born into fire, and a hell of a tactician ... which makes him cool, but still evil.

3/10: Che Guevara. Allowed killing without trial under his watch, yes, or at least sort of. Now, Jeffrey Dahmer didn't need a trial for me to agree that the fucker did it. But this offends my liberal sensibilities, hence he's on the list. He liberated millions and inspired millions more to fight back against oppressive regimes, and I always like a 'take the power back' kind of man. He only gets a three.

2/10: Ghandi. Didn't kill, but thousands died as a result of uprisings and the like inspired by his actions. Sure, YOU don't have to kill anyone, but you know what? When the imperialist army comes to my town to hold us down, I'm fighting back, and blood will spill. Still, not very heinous, and justifiably inspiring.

1/10: Jesus. Loved all, forgave all, killed nobody. The only reason he's on this list at all (incidentally, he ranks 9.5/10 on the Scale of Goodness) is that people like George Bush quote him ... guilty by association.

Posted by phduffy on Jul 17, 2007
That Belgian King needs to be right up there at the 10. Leopold?

The Scale of Evil
Posted by Tim on Jul 17, 2007
The Scale of Evil:

The following should serve as a reference guide.

10/10: Adolf Hitler. One of the greatest villains in the history of mankind. Season after season, he's in the running for the World Cup of Evil, but it's a real horserace between him and perennial favourites Pol Pot, Josef Stalin and Ghengis Khan.

7/10. Napoleon. Loved the conquering. No reason given, just loved it, glory and eponymous syndromes and all that. Revered as a hero in some circles, which is hilarious. As they say, the winners write the history.

6/10: Hurricane Katrina. That bitch. Why? Still, not that many died on the scale compared to those ranked higher, and she helped shed light on pertinent social problems.

5/10: The Pope. All popes, but none in particular -- this charge comes by holding The Office. Complicit in the senseless slaughter of millions (either through malicious intent, physical violence, negligence, or a catastrophic devotion to silly, inhuman doctrines). Justification? None. Find a line in the bible that says God shall speak through one man, a fundamentalist asshole of a man, voted in by an international group of other depraved, unsexed (or child-sexed) sociopaths. Find it yet? Didn't think so. 5!

4/10. Muhammed. Had some peaceful things to say, yes, about his chosen people, and nobody else. He's a man of war, born into fire, and a hell of a tactician ... which makes him cool, but still evil.

3/10: Che Guevara. Allowed killing without trial under his watch, yes, or at least sort of. Now, Jeffrey Dahmer didn't need a trial for me to agree that the fucker did it. But this offends my liberal sensibilities, hence he's on the list. He liberated millions and inspired millions more to fight back against oppressive regimes, and I always like a 'take the power back' kind of man. He only gets a three.

2/10: Ghandi. Didn't kill, but thousands died as a result of uprisings and the like inspired by his actions. Sure, YOU don't have to kill anyone, but you know what? When the imperialist army comes to my town to hold us down, I'm fighting back, and blood will spill. Still, not very heinous, and justifiably inspiring.

1/10: Jesus. Loved all, forgave all, killed nobody. The only reason he's on this list at all (incidentally, he ranks 9.5/10 on the Scale of Goodness) is that people like George Bush quote him ... guilty by association.

Posted by bryan on Jul 17, 2007
I have some additions here.

I'd say all popes average out at around 5, with the popes further back in time rating more evil and current popes rating less evil.

6/10 - Reagan. Stuck his "free market" dick in plenty of places where it wasn't welcome, without proper lubrication. I feel like I can back up this metaphor, but it might take some work.

7/10 - Cheney. Guy is a total fucking douchebag.


To further clarify, I am disagreeing with Miguel, purely because I was bored this afternoon in my cube.



Posted by Miguel on Jul 18, 2007

4/10 - Cobra Commander. Always had to wear a mask due to inferiority complex, ridiculous world domination schemes really never killed anyone besides some robots that one episode. Bonus points for sweet ninja underlings.

7/10 - Mumra The Everliving. Constant thorn on the side of Lion-O. Major bonus points for almost making a tiny Miguel pee his pants every time he did his transformation into super mumra.

8/10 - Megatron. Turned into a gun, didnt take any shit from starscream. Was all about getting that money (or energon). Hung out with Shockwave, and if a dude is good enough for Shockwave, by God he's good enough for me.

1/10 - Gargamel from the Smurfs. World-class shit magnet, utterly useless. Unhealthy fixation with the lone female Smurf. Probable pedophelic leanings.

6/10 - Tetsuo from Akira - Killed pretty much all of Tokyo.....thats a lot of peeps.

Posted by bryan on Jul 18, 2007
Miguel,

My pants were similarily almost soiled.

I also add:

Galactus

10/10 Guy eats planets. Do you eat planets? Didn't think so.

Posted by Thrillhouse on Jul 19, 2007
In the interest of som historical accuracy, Bryan the statistic of 6,000,000 that is thrown around for the number of people killed in concentration camps is for Jews only. As far as I've come across, when you add all the socialists, communists, gays, gypsies, political opponents, Poles, mentally retarded people, and whoever else Hitler decided to throw into this grab-bag of the damned the number is closer to 9,000,000.

Additionally, if we were to pin all the deaths caused during WWII on Hitler, the number runs (depending on who you talk to) between 50 and 70 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Additionally, while the Holocaust certainly framed the creation of the state of Israel, I believe the initial blame for that whole mess falls to the British, who had been examining the creation of a zionist state in the territories that came under their administration after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The Balfour Declaration, which was written in 1917, declared this as official British policy, and set the stage for the eventual creation of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917

Of course some of the blame lies with the various states of the Middle East, such as Egypt, Jordan, Israel, etc etc, but I believe it represents one of the worst legacies of colonialism (which also includes the Rwandan and Sudanese genocides, as well as the current situation in Iraq - something that indicates to me that no one in the White House had a fucking clue about colonial history).

Anyways, those numbers kind of put Hitler way out of Che's reach on the scale of evil. And while Stalin has been brought up already, let us not also forget Mao and his costly little experiment.