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Forum posts for Go Veggie

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Posted by cosmicfish on Mar 18, 2006
also, when i googled meat production on google video the third one on the list was an interveiw with Angela Lansbury who does not talk about meat at all

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Posted by bryan on Mar 18, 2006
Angela Lansbury is a hot piece of lady beef. Aged to perfection.

Boohoo
Posted by kristian on Mar 20, 2006
I got about 1 minute into this video and had to stop it because I was getting teary-eyed. Seriously. If there is a punch line, I missed it.

Aside, I am already veg and this crazy thing makes me contemplate vegan that much more.

Yeah...
Posted by mike on Mar 20, 2006
Unbelievable. We live in a society where there is a debate about whether we should eat meat or not, while there are places in this world where people don't get any food at all. Now that is decadence.

If you can look me square in the eye and tell me that you would really and truly decline to eat a piece of meat if you were mere hours away from death by starvation then you get to tell to me about how wrong it is to eat meat. There is nothing wrong with choosing to not eat meat. However, you need to remember that the only reason you get to make the choice to not eat meat is because your meat eating ancestors built our society up to the point where it is a conceivable choice to make.

I mustn't fully grasp what it means to be vegan. I am so far away from being vegan that I don't know how accurate my assumption is, but my understanding is that vegans do not want to have anything to do with any kind of products that ahve anything to do with hurting animals.
If that is correct in any way I have to be the bearer of bad news... your concept is fundamentally flawed. If you choose to not wear clothing and use stuff that came from animals you are in fact choosing TO use products that come from plants, minerals, oil, or perhaps a few other areas. If you choose to use oil or mineral based products you are condoing the destruction of animal habitat and the pollution involved in harvesting resources. If you choose to use plant based materials you are choosing to deprive animals of the area required to grow the materials as well as the food that would have been provided by the material you use.
If you want to eat a whole bunch of vegetables, please remember how much more vegetable matter is required to feed you. Those vegetables come from fields and greenhouses and so forth. That means that more land is required to be worked in order to feed you. That land can't be used by the animals you are "protecting", and you are in fact eating their food.
But Mike you say... "I would only eat organic foods...". Great. Where exactly do you think the manure comes from to fertilize your organic foods? There isn's a unch of people out scouring the forests for it.

That's enough for now. Humans are part of the world. If you want to make less of an impact we need to de-industrialize. We need to get back to eating animals directly instead of large scale and wasteful processing. It would be quite a place to live if you had to spend several hours of your day hunting and foraging, as well as several hours gathering fire wood.

I do know that eating the animals food instead of the animals is just avoiding the "problem" not solving it. But it is still a choice you get to make. There is no right choice.

Also... the video did show animal cruelty (beyond the killing). That can be avoided... but that is greed.

well said
Posted by jessie on Mar 20, 2006
I agree with you totally mike, there are bigger issues out there, and not eating meat is bad for you. You can't replace certain things that meat provides.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4282257.stm

but factory farming is bad bad bad.

Argh
Posted by kristian on Mar 20, 2006
To calrify, a vegan is someone who does not consume anything derived from animals. This includes meat, eggs, dairy, silk, wool and leather (other people would wear the last three, not eat them). Most "vegetarians" are lacto-ovo, which means they eat eggs and dairy, but no flesh.

"If you choose to use plant based materials you are choosing to deprive animals of the area required to grow the materials as well as the food that would have been provided by the material you use."

Bullshit. According to the US Department of Agriculture statistics, one acre of land can grow 20,000 pounds of potatoes. That same acre of land, when used to grow cattle feed, can produce less than 165 pounds of edible cow flesh. Believe me, farm animals are possibly the least effecient method of feeding ourselves. If we just ate those potatoes in the first place, I am certain more people could be fed. And sure, if my way went to the extreme, those cows wouldn't exists in the first place. But I think you would agree that over-farming is a serious problem.

http://www.idrc.ca/en/ev-30610-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html

"If you want to eat a whole bunch of vegetables, please remember how much more vegetable matter is required to feed you".

Not necessarily true. A varied diet of vegetable and grains has sustained me fine for a while, and I don't think that my overall consumption of food has changed at all since I switched.

"and not eating meat is bad for you. You can't replace certain things that meat provides."

That is a single researcher's opinion, and if you look you will find that there are hundreds of other researcher's that published the opposite findings. And she was looking at malnourished African children. I am not surprised that giving them meat made them healthier. Giving them an array of fruits and veggies would have also helped. In developed countries (which is NOT where this study was carried out), we have plenty of access to everything we need to get every single nutrient our body requires. Every diet, meat based or not, has the potential to be flawed. Vegetarian diets may indeed be healthier than conventional diets because there tends to be less fats and more of certain vitamins and minerals (eg. folate, which is important during pregnancy). I admit there is a decrease in certain vitamins (eg. iron) but there are other sources than meat, and being educated about it and seeking this out will easily maintain your health.

Listen, I am not in any way condemning people who eat meat. I did up until a few years ago. I just think that a lot of what you are saying is misinformed.


LAME!
Posted by jessie on Mar 20, 2006

"I just think that a lot of what you are saying is misinformed."

"That is a single researcher's opinion, and if you look you will find that there are hundreds of other researcher's that published the opposite findings."

You think I am misinformed because I do not agree with you. That is extremely lame. There is loads of research done on this topic. For and against. We could argue about it forever.

Animal cruelty sucks. KFC sucks, fast food chains and giant meat processing plants suck. Really suck. We are all on the same page here.


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Posted by cosmicfish on Mar 20, 2006
There was no punch line, I cried a bit to when I watched the video.

We really are on the same page, most of us on the wolfshack are pretty informed I'd like to think.

How many of us buy and eat things because it's better for the world? I try to as much as I can but with so many biased articles it's difficult to know what facts to trust.

Right....
Posted by phduffy on Mar 20, 2006
just think that a lot of what you are saying is misinformed."

"That is a single researcher's opinion, and if you look you will find that there are hundreds of other researcher's that published the opposite findings."

You think I am misinformed because I do not agree with you. That is extremely lame. There is loads of research done on this topic. For and against. We could argue about it forever.


So, let's say there are 1000 researches who think you can have a balanced life without eating meat, and 50 who think that you can't. If I present the 1,000, and you present the 50, are you saying that you're equally as informed, or that the two opinions are balanced and controversial?

Additionally, what if I had been trained as, and worked as, a scientist. Perhaps I might know a little bit more about reading and interpreting these kinds of studies?

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Posted by bryan on Mar 20, 2006
what if you were trained as a scientist at an institution that didn't give you the proper skills to seperate your emotion from the research? We can get into theoreticals all day duffy.

The point everyone is missing is that Angela Lansbury is a google search result for meat. She clearly isn't attractive, and she also isn't edible. ESPECIALLY NOT if you are vegan.

You guys are crazy
Posted by Miguel on Mar 20, 2006

As far as I can tell Mike, you are arguing that its better for the environment to eat meat than it is to be a vegetarian. And that's fucking insane. It's not even intuitive, never mind what that Cattle Association study said.

Listen, I feel you, I really do, meat is delicious and I'm NEVUHR going to stop eating it. In fact, whenever I can, I try to buy grain fed/organic/free range/erotic massaged meat at all times. It tastes better and its good for you and Captain Planets Earth.

Problem is, that delicious comfortable cow was not raised very efficiently, and as such it is terribly expensive. There is no way in hell you can raise livestock more efficiently and with less impact on the environment than growing vegetables.

You have to destroy forests, account for horrible fecal matter (especially pigs, whose shits can only basically be turned into a giant lake of methane), provide LOTS of space for them to live AND give them lots of feed which must be grown in other giant crops....

Its all nice and good to say "oh but free range and organic won't have many of those problems"......but there is no way in hell organic can work to feed the population of the world as it is right now. Hell, most Canadians can't even come close to affording true organically grown meat. Can you?

Because as soon as you are buying some cheapo bacon or chicken breast you are automatically buying into a hormone fed/food intensive/environment destroying infrastructure. I don't like it, but I at least acknowledge that it exists without ranting about THE DAMN VEGETARIANS!


Snakes on a plane.
Posted by mike on Mar 20, 2006
I ate lunch while I watched the video. It was a BLT... the bacon was tasty. Interestingly enough it had a lot more vegetable than meat... in fact I would say it had a good balance.

Animals produce more for humans than just meat.

I am confident that an average pound of meat would have more food energy than an average pound of vegetable.

Crops require fertilizer... conveniently enough animals provide that.

Modern humans are omnivores. Being an omnivore has very specific advantages from a survival standpoint.

The last letters of Landsbury are "sbury". A salsbury steak is a chunk of gristly meat.

The supplied article was extremely biased. It actually made me wonder what practical purpose animals serve in a human dominated world.

Humans are experiencing a major overpopulation problem. Seemingly mostly in areas that don't readily support hug poplulations.

Pets require food. Mostly meat. Are pets adding to the problem?

Humans can only eat certain plants. Animals can eat plants that humans can't. Putting focus on specific plants could result in a blight of some kind causing a real problem.

All quantities seem to be discussed as edible weights of meat vs. gross weights of vegetables.

At one time thousands of reaserachers thought the sun revolved around the earth and 50 thought the Earth revolved aroudn the sun. The 1000 look like assholes now.

If technology dies I cannot fathom humans surviving on vegetables alone.

Opinions are like assholes.

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Posted by mike on Mar 20, 2006
I am not arguing that it is better for the environment. I was attempting to point out that even vegans fuck with animals. When vegetarians get going it gets to sounding kind of "holier than thou are" to me. A proper balance is best for the environment. Don't forget that an ecosystem works with plants and animals, predators and prey all doing an intricate balancing act.

Humanity is like a ranmpant virus on Earth. We are also an animal like any other, and without a predator or a disease to check our population we will continue to "flourish" until something stops us. SInce we resist any natural attempts at reducing our poulation it seems most likely that we will either kill ourselves or run out of food.

We do our damndest to make sure people live as long as possible, we strive to keep the mortality rates as low, we try to subvert natural selction at every turn... and then bitch about how much food gets eaten. You want to talk crazy? That pretty crazy!

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Posted by phduffy on Mar 20, 2006
At one time thousands of reaserachers thought the sun revolved around the earth and 50 thought the Earth revolved aroudn the sun. The 1000 look like assholes now.

Name one. The Church certainly thought so, but did researches?
Fuck, the Greeks had it figured out thousands of years ago.


That said, it's ceratainly possible that the majority of scientists are incorrect about any given issue. It's also possible that people use this idea as a crutch for ideas that aren't really supported by science.

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Posted by mike on Mar 20, 2006
I am not arguing that it is better for the environment. I was attempting to point out that even vegans fuck with animals. When vegetarians get going it gets to sounding kind of "holier than thou are" to me. A proper balance is best for the environment. Don't forget that an ecosystem works with plants and animals, predators and prey all doing an intricate balancing act.

Humanity is like a ranmpant virus on Earth. We are also an animal like any other, and without a predator or a disease to check our population we will continue to "flourish" until something stops us. SInce we resist any natural attempts at reducing our poulation it seems most likely that we will either kill ourselves or run out of food.

We do our damndest to make sure people live as long as possible, we strive to keep the mortality rates as low, we try to subvert natural selction at every turn... and then bitch about how much food gets eaten. You want to talk crazy? That pretty crazy!